Certain tone combinations seem harder than others for beginners to get a handle on, some of which are more surprising than others. I would have thought that 4th to 2nd would be pretty much an open and shut case, but it's proved to be a challenging combination for my student to (consistently) master.
The problem doesn't seem to be with the 4th tone syllable, which is swift, emphatic, and drops enough in pitch, but rather with his inability to start his ascent from the precise point where his 4th tone ends.
If this sounds like your problem too, try visualizing this scenerio:
Imagine that you are diving into a pool. A perfect dive (like the picture on the right) where your voice falls in pitch as quickly and effortlessly as your body would cut through the water.
You must touch the bottom of the pool. Only after you have touch the bottom do you turn, crouch, and then push yourself up.
Now,let your second tone rise, as effortlessly as your body would seamlessly be propelled to the surface of the water.
Some 4th - 2nd tone combinations to practice are:
wen4ti2 (問題problem)
lu4cha2 (綠茶green tea)
fa4guo2 (法國France)
Yin4ni2 (印尼Indonesia)
Tai4guo2 (泰國Thailand)
Yue4nan2 (越南Vietnam)
da4ren4 (大人adult)
er4shi2 (二十twenty)
Tuesday, September 15, 2009
Sunday, August 9, 2009
No Sleeping in the Dumpling Shop! (A.K.A. The Importance of Tone)
"Ooooohhhh," my friend groaned after indulging in a feast of yummy (but filling!) dumplings, "Shuijiao make me shuijiao" he drawled, rolling on the couch.
Note:
Dumplings = 水餃 = shui3 jiao3
Sleep = 睡覺 = shui4 jiao4
We all laughed along with him. A few months before, he had railed against the shop owner who hadn't understood his request for dumplings. He conceded that his tones might have been a bit off, but, "I was in a dumpling shop!! I mean, come on! Did they really think I was saying that I wanted to sleep??"
I've thought about this for many years now and I've concluded that this is precisely what they thought in the first minute after he spoke. After all, it's what he announced upon coming into their shop, and it seems to me that the function of language is to avoid/minimize the need for second guessing. We naturally accept what someone says at face value, even if it doesn't make sense, before resorting to considering other options, which is more work.
In my own life, as an ESL teacher, I often am confronted with sentences that don't make sense, all because of a slight pronunciation error. For example, many native Chinese speakers have trouble with English vowel sounds, in particular distinguishing (or seeing the need to distinguish) long from short vowels.
After a decade of being perplexed at least once a class by mispronunciation, I know for a fact that I as a native speaker take a sentence at face value before considering other alternatives, and I'm inclined to think that most people do the same.
The best example I have is the time when I asked my class what they did over the weekend. After throwing the question out to my group, I looked expectantly at the first student in the row of desks strung out in a half circle around the room, a pretty, unassuming girl with a nice smile.
"Bitch," she promptly answered.
"Pardon me?" I said, slightly taken aback.
"Bitch," she repeated, before helpfully adding with a smile, "I yesterday go to bitch."
"Oh, beach! You went to the beeeeeeeeach" I said, relieved I wasn't being cursed at.
"Yes, beeeitch, I went to the beeeeeeitch" she repeated, making a slightly modified yet still incorrect stab at the word in question.
We spent the next 20 minutes practising "bitch" vs. "beach" along with a bunch of other examples, "hit/heat", "rip/reap", etc. Judging from a few of their expressions, I'm sure many of them thought I was nit-picking. Surely, they must have been saying to themselves, such a small difference in pronunciation wouldn't make a big difference.
But it did, because when I hear a sentence that doesn't make sense, I don't immediately come up with a mental list of possible substitutions for the word in question. I think I'm predisposed to give whatever they're saying a shot, more than to substitute vowel sounds and think of other more likely words that would better fit their sentence. That comes a minute later, when it's clear we are miscommunicating. But in the first moment, I believe what I'm hearing. Hence, I thought Sandy was calling me a bitch.
Likewise, I think that the folks in the dumpling restaurant thought my friend had wandered into the wrong place. Maybe he had mistaken their shop for a hotel, maybe he was just a bit odd and said random things to people. I'm sure that with a minute or two of gestures and pointing, they understood that he did indeed want to eat dumplings and not sleep, but in the first minute, they heard sleep.
Tone is something most native English speakers must battle to understand the importance of, because we don't have it, but before raging against the native speaker that "refuses" to understand you, I ask you to play the long/short vowel game in English and see how well you do, i.e:
"Tap/tape the table.", "I need a mat/mate.", "Wrap/rape the flowers please." And on and on...
The bottom line is:
Don't underestimate the all importance of tone. (Or you might be getting directions to the nearest hotel instead of your dinner!)
Note:
Dumplings = 水餃 = shui3 jiao3
Sleep = 睡覺 = shui4 jiao4
We all laughed along with him. A few months before, he had railed against the shop owner who hadn't understood his request for dumplings. He conceded that his tones might have been a bit off, but, "I was in a dumpling shop!! I mean, come on! Did they really think I was saying that I wanted to sleep??"
I've thought about this for many years now and I've concluded that this is precisely what they thought in the first minute after he spoke. After all, it's what he announced upon coming into their shop, and it seems to me that the function of language is to avoid/minimize the need for second guessing. We naturally accept what someone says at face value, even if it doesn't make sense, before resorting to considering other options, which is more work.
In my own life, as an ESL teacher, I often am confronted with sentences that don't make sense, all because of a slight pronunciation error. For example, many native Chinese speakers have trouble with English vowel sounds, in particular distinguishing (or seeing the need to distinguish) long from short vowels.
After a decade of being perplexed at least once a class by mispronunciation, I know for a fact that I as a native speaker take a sentence at face value before considering other alternatives, and I'm inclined to think that most people do the same.
The best example I have is the time when I asked my class what they did over the weekend. After throwing the question out to my group, I looked expectantly at the first student in the row of desks strung out in a half circle around the room, a pretty, unassuming girl with a nice smile.
"Bitch," she promptly answered.
"Pardon me?" I said, slightly taken aback.
"Bitch," she repeated, before helpfully adding with a smile, "I yesterday go to bitch."
"Oh, beach! You went to the beeeeeeeeach" I said, relieved I wasn't being cursed at.
"Yes, beeeitch, I went to the beeeeeeitch" she repeated, making a slightly modified yet still incorrect stab at the word in question.
We spent the next 20 minutes practising "bitch" vs. "beach" along with a bunch of other examples, "hit/heat", "rip/reap", etc. Judging from a few of their expressions, I'm sure many of them thought I was nit-picking. Surely, they must have been saying to themselves, such a small difference in pronunciation wouldn't make a big difference.
But it did, because when I hear a sentence that doesn't make sense, I don't immediately come up with a mental list of possible substitutions for the word in question. I think I'm predisposed to give whatever they're saying a shot, more than to substitute vowel sounds and think of other more likely words that would better fit their sentence. That comes a minute later, when it's clear we are miscommunicating. But in the first moment, I believe what I'm hearing. Hence, I thought Sandy was calling me a bitch.
Likewise, I think that the folks in the dumpling restaurant thought my friend had wandered into the wrong place. Maybe he had mistaken their shop for a hotel, maybe he was just a bit odd and said random things to people. I'm sure that with a minute or two of gestures and pointing, they understood that he did indeed want to eat dumplings and not sleep, but in the first minute, they heard sleep.
Tone is something most native English speakers must battle to understand the importance of, because we don't have it, but before raging against the native speaker that "refuses" to understand you, I ask you to play the long/short vowel game in English and see how well you do, i.e:
"Tap/tape the table.", "I need a mat/mate.", "Wrap/rape the flowers please." And on and on...
The bottom line is:
Don't underestimate the all importance of tone. (Or you might be getting directions to the nearest hotel instead of your dinner!)
Tone - Starting on the right foot
While there are many advantages to being self taught, one of the disadvantages is that the learner tends to pick and choose what's important to him/her. In my case,I decided that learning tones per se really didn't matter that much - as long as I mimicked what I heard acurately.
That was not a good idea.
It's way way WAY better to learn your tones as you go, and to be (or rather, have your teacher/native speaker friend be) vigilant about your pronunciation. I had to spend a lot of time learning tones and how to speak correctly long after I started studying, and I can tell you that it's not the way to go.
I managed to improve my tones (thus elevating my Chinese) after the fact with lots of practice and constant repetition. It was work, it's still work, but it's worth it. I spend a lot of time listening and repeating. I listen and repeat the dialogues from my book, Very Practical Chinese while I'm doing housework. I listen and repeat Youtube clips. I also started writing out paragraphs (once I had finished the dialogues) to make sure I knew the proper pinyin/tone for each character. I learned the hard way that mimicking a native speaker is important, but knowing the tones that you're trying to mimick is of vital importance; otherwise, there's a strong likelihood that when you try to "mix and match" your sentences, you'll screw your tones up. Remember... (this is your mantra!) Tone Is Everything. (well, almost everything!)
That was not a good idea.
It's way way WAY better to learn your tones as you go, and to be (or rather, have your teacher/native speaker friend be) vigilant about your pronunciation. I had to spend a lot of time learning tones and how to speak correctly long after I started studying, and I can tell you that it's not the way to go.
I managed to improve my tones (thus elevating my Chinese) after the fact with lots of practice and constant repetition. It was work, it's still work, but it's worth it. I spend a lot of time listening and repeating. I listen and repeat the dialogues from my book, Very Practical Chinese while I'm doing housework. I listen and repeat Youtube clips. I also started writing out paragraphs (once I had finished the dialogues) to make sure I knew the proper pinyin/tone for each character. I learned the hard way that mimicking a native speaker is important, but knowing the tones that you're trying to mimick is of vital importance; otherwise, there's a strong likelihood that when you try to "mix and match" your sentences, you'll screw your tones up. Remember... (this is your mantra!) Tone Is Everything. (well, almost everything!)
Monday, July 27, 2009
More funny tattoos (A.K.A. Everyone Loves their Little Sister!)
One of my students shared this one with me and it just made my day...very funny! I wish I had seen it myself, but who knows, maybe I'll run into her one day.
My student saw a girl with the character 妹妹 (mei4 mei) tattooed on the back of her neck. 妹妹 means, "little sister"....it's too bad that in Taiwan it's also slang for "vagina".
Whoops.
I know I shouldn't, but I hope this girl actually has an interest in Chinese. Perhaps she'll travel to Taiwan or China, where she can have earnest conversations galore in broken Chinese with locals desperately trying to maintain a poker face in the midst of such gems as "I love my little sister"..."My little sister is very important to me"...I guess "I love to play with my little sister" might be too much to hope for, but then again, maybe not...I could go on, but you can think of more on your own!
Moral of the story: Chinese characters are great. Many tattoos are great. Chinese tattoos CAN BE great - just do your homework!
I told my co-worker this story. She has The Tao tattooed on her back, and told me that she brought three versions of it to the Chinese Studies department of her university, to find out which one was the most accurate/most beautiful, and to make sure there were no mistakes/typos.
Seems like a good way to go.
My student saw a girl with the character 妹妹 (mei4 mei) tattooed on the back of her neck. 妹妹 means, "little sister"....it's too bad that in Taiwan it's also slang for "vagina".
Whoops.
I know I shouldn't, but I hope this girl actually has an interest in Chinese. Perhaps she'll travel to Taiwan or China, where she can have earnest conversations galore in broken Chinese with locals desperately trying to maintain a poker face in the midst of such gems as "I love my little sister"..."My little sister is very important to me"...I guess "I love to play with my little sister" might be too much to hope for, but then again, maybe not...I could go on, but you can think of more on your own!
Moral of the story: Chinese characters are great. Many tattoos are great. Chinese tattoos CAN BE great - just do your homework!
I told my co-worker this story. She has The Tao tattooed on her back, and told me that she brought three versions of it to the Chinese Studies department of her university, to find out which one was the most accurate/most beautiful, and to make sure there were no mistakes/typos.
Seems like a good way to go.
Friday, July 10, 2009
Ta-ta-ta = fun fun fun!
Have you ever thought about the Chinese pronoun "ta"?
It can be written 他/她/牠/它 (he/she/it(animal)/it(inanimate object), but it's pronounced ta/ta/ta/ta.
"Hhhmph!", I remember another foreigner scoffing, years ago, upon making the discovery that, "in Chinese, they only have ONE WAY to say he, she, and it. In English we have THREE." (She had an admirable grasp of the obvious.) It's clear what she was implying, which was flawed from the get go. Languages don't compete with each other, nor can they be compared to one another in this way, especially languages as different as Mandarin and English. Not that this stops newbies from engaging in this sort of "My language is better than yours" talk.
This comment, years ago, got me thinking about the "ta" issue.
Anyone with even a basic understanding of Chinese knows that the Chinese have a word for everything. Seriously, not joking. "Younger female cousin on my mother's side" ~ there's a word for it. "The sores you get on the inside of your mouth when you eat too much pineapple" ~ yup, there's a word for that too. "The sound that a skirt makes as it gently billows in the breeze". Yes, that one too, and thousands and thousands more...and more. It's super cool. And supremely specific.
So it seems obvious that it was a deliberate choice to keep the SPOKEN "ta" the same for he/she/it(thing and animal). But why?
Well, because a spoken gender neutral pronoun is very useful. It makes it easy to talk about a friend in detail without revealing his or her gender. This is very useful if your girlfriend asks you who you had lunch with and you don't really want to say that it was with a girl. You can say, "Oh, an old friend. I know ta from high school." Of course, you can try the old "they/them" trick in English, i.e."An old friend...I know them from high school." but it's not the same as with the English listener immediately registers the fact that you are deliberately masking "their" gender.
Not so with Chinese. And if you're gay, it's even better. You can have whole conversations about a person your co-worker/acquaintance assumes is a woman (but it's a man) or vice versa. I've hardly ever heard the question "是男的他還是女的?" (Is that the male "ta" or female "ta"?) and I've had plenty of conversations where it could have been asked, but never was. Why?
I think that it's because it's polite to ask questions in Chinese culture - to show you care. Ergo, the language has many built-in "features", so to speak, that allow you to evade topics you don't wish to discuss and avoid giving out information you don't wish to reveal. That's why you can say "我有事" (I have something to do) and no one asks you "什麼事?" (What "thing" do you have to do?). It's rude to ask, as it's understood that the speaker doesn't care to elaborate. Ditto with identifying gender. The listener generally waits until the speaker chooses to identify the subject's gender "我女的朋友" (My girl friend, i.e. friend who is a girl).
Oooh, now there's an interesting point: when you choose to be specific about your relationship with someone, you can be VERY specific, much more so than in English. You can say 我的女朋友 = my girlfriend OR 我的女的朋友 = my girl friend. In English, we have to point out that we are "just friends, using way more syllables than Chinese to get the meaning across that this a platonic friend only. Whereas with Chinese, you just add the 的 and it's crystal clear!
But back to gender neutral "ta" - try having a conversation with a subject whose gender you deliberately keep ambiguous by using "ta" - and see for yourself! It's fun, interesting, and sometimes, very useful!
It can be written 他/她/牠/它 (he/she/it(animal)/it(inanimate object), but it's pronounced ta/ta/ta/ta.
"Hhhmph!", I remember another foreigner scoffing, years ago, upon making the discovery that, "in Chinese, they only have ONE WAY to say he, she, and it. In English we have THREE." (She had an admirable grasp of the obvious.) It's clear what she was implying, which was flawed from the get go. Languages don't compete with each other, nor can they be compared to one another in this way, especially languages as different as Mandarin and English. Not that this stops newbies from engaging in this sort of "My language is better than yours" talk.
This comment, years ago, got me thinking about the "ta" issue.
Anyone with even a basic understanding of Chinese knows that the Chinese have a word for everything. Seriously, not joking. "Younger female cousin on my mother's side" ~ there's a word for it. "The sores you get on the inside of your mouth when you eat too much pineapple" ~ yup, there's a word for that too. "The sound that a skirt makes as it gently billows in the breeze". Yes, that one too, and thousands and thousands more...and more. It's super cool. And supremely specific.
So it seems obvious that it was a deliberate choice to keep the SPOKEN "ta" the same for he/she/it(thing and animal). But why?
Well, because a spoken gender neutral pronoun is very useful. It makes it easy to talk about a friend in detail without revealing his or her gender. This is very useful if your girlfriend asks you who you had lunch with and you don't really want to say that it was with a girl. You can say, "Oh, an old friend. I know ta from high school." Of course, you can try the old "they/them" trick in English, i.e."An old friend...I know them from high school." but it's not the same as with the English listener immediately registers the fact that you are deliberately masking "their" gender.
Not so with Chinese. And if you're gay, it's even better. You can have whole conversations about a person your co-worker/acquaintance assumes is a woman (but it's a man) or vice versa. I've hardly ever heard the question "是男的他還是女的?" (Is that the male "ta" or female "ta"?) and I've had plenty of conversations where it could have been asked, but never was. Why?
I think that it's because it's polite to ask questions in Chinese culture - to show you care. Ergo, the language has many built-in "features", so to speak, that allow you to evade topics you don't wish to discuss and avoid giving out information you don't wish to reveal. That's why you can say "我有事" (I have something to do) and no one asks you "什麼事?" (What "thing" do you have to do?). It's rude to ask, as it's understood that the speaker doesn't care to elaborate. Ditto with identifying gender. The listener generally waits until the speaker chooses to identify the subject's gender "我女的朋友" (My girl friend, i.e. friend who is a girl).
Oooh, now there's an interesting point: when you choose to be specific about your relationship with someone, you can be VERY specific, much more so than in English. You can say 我的女朋友 = my girlfriend OR 我的女的朋友 = my girl friend. In English, we have to point out that we are "just friends, using way more syllables than Chinese to get the meaning across that this a platonic friend only. Whereas with Chinese, you just add the 的 and it's crystal clear!
But back to gender neutral "ta" - try having a conversation with a subject whose gender you deliberately keep ambiguous by using "ta" - and see for yourself! It's fun, interesting, and sometimes, very useful!
Sunday, July 5, 2009
Department store studying
If you live in big city or even a small city in Taiwan, you know find a large at least one, if not several department stores. One of my favorite "out and about" ways to study in Taiwan is while ensconced in one of these odes to consumer excess. While busy on evenings and weekends, they are all but deserted during the day. So if you can find time on, say, a Tuesday or Wednesday mid-afternoon, you'll find between five and ten floors of bored shop girls. (This was true before the global recession and is bound to be doubly true now.)
My advice is to start at the top and work down. It helps, (but isn't necessary) to look up a few vocabulary words (i.e. clothing, home decor items, colours, electronics) and then just go for it. When I did this, I made up plausible conversation starters and little mock dialogues which became the basis of the conversation book I ended up writing.
Most of the time, the conversation transitions relatively seamlessly from whatever you're "thinking about" buying to other topics(where you're from, what you do, etc.)
I used to start at the top and work my way down through the departments. Sometimes I'd stay for a few hours, other times just for ten or fifteen minutes, but it was always a worthwhile venture.
Hopefully this tip helps and you see your next trip window shopping at your local department store for what it can be: a free Chinese class! Good Luck and fun!
My advice is to start at the top and work down. It helps, (but isn't necessary) to look up a few vocabulary words (i.e. clothing, home decor items, colours, electronics) and then just go for it. When I did this, I made up plausible conversation starters and little mock dialogues which became the basis of the conversation book I ended up writing.
Most of the time, the conversation transitions relatively seamlessly from whatever you're "thinking about" buying to other topics(where you're from, what you do, etc.)
I used to start at the top and work my way down through the departments. Sometimes I'd stay for a few hours, other times just for ten or fifteen minutes, but it was always a worthwhile venture.
Hopefully this tip helps and you see your next trip window shopping at your local department store for what it can be: a free Chinese class! Good Luck and fun!
Friday, June 26, 2009
Funny Chinese Tattoos
Here is a link to a fun website:
http://www.hanzismatter.com/
It explores the misuse of Chinese characters/Japanese Kanji by Westerners. (Perhaps we could be kind and say “misguided” use?) It’s a phenomenon for which any Westerner who has taken the time to learn characters has one or two good stories, given the explosion in popularity of Chinese tattoos in recent years.
My first experience with wacky Chinese tattoos (on an equally wacky but hopefully not too demented person) was in Taiwan, when I ran into a man with the character 惡 tattooed on his upper chest. By co-incidence, it was one of the few I knew. Upon first seeing it, I remember thinking it was quite Celtic looking and rather pretty looking. I wondered if this man had made the same mistake, and asked him if he knew what it meant. He said, “Yes, it means evil, and it’s on my heart because I have an evil heart.” Erm, okay…I backed up (I’m sure my face conveyed my shock) and that was the end of that conversation. I wonder what Mr. Evil Heart is doing today…
While on the beach just the other day I commented on the tattoo that another dog owner had prominently displayed on his bicep. “So you’re a tiger,” I ventured. The man looked rather nonplussed and said that he was, and the conversation didn’t go anywhere, which left me wondering if he thought he had tattooed some mystical symbol on his arm, one that only wise and learned stoics could decipher, rather than what it really was for the billion plus people who read Chinese or Japanese, i.e. the equivalent of spelling T-I-G-E-R in VERY BIG letters on your arm.
This reminded me of the time that my mother and father and I travelled to Hong Kong and my mother was transfixed by the beauty of the neon signs. “Aren’t they lovely?” she beamed. While I appreciated their colours, I was unable to appreciate them as aesthetic works of art only, since I kept getting distracted by their meanings, with decidedly unromantic words like “barber shop” (which generally means brothel) “sale”, and “fried chicken” jumping out at me. At that point, having a finely tuned sense of aesthetics, (thanks to my mother) I wished I didn’t know how to read them and could have appreciated them for their beauty alone.
By far the most stupid tattoo I’ve seen in a while (quite literally!) was a few months back, when I spied a girl in a bar with the phrase 愚蠢的女孩 tattooed down her back. I did a double take, and checked my dictionary as soon as I got home. Sure enough, it was indeed “stupid girl”. Why? I mean, really…why?? Perhaps she liked the song “Stupid Girl” by Garbage and thought it would be a neat “inside joke”. However an inside joke is by definition one that few get, and her chances of going under the radar with this ridiculous tattoo were slim to none in Vancouver, the most Chinese city in North America…
It’s probably good to have cases of Westerners misusing Chinese as it evens things up, given the propensity of Chinese/Japanese speakers to misuse English, but I would like to point out that the latter have an advantage over the former, as they generally display their English language gaffers on T-shirts!!
http://www.hanzismatter.com/
It explores the misuse of Chinese characters/Japanese Kanji by Westerners. (Perhaps we could be kind and say “misguided” use?) It’s a phenomenon for which any Westerner who has taken the time to learn characters has one or two good stories, given the explosion in popularity of Chinese tattoos in recent years.
My first experience with wacky Chinese tattoos (on an equally wacky but hopefully not too demented person) was in Taiwan, when I ran into a man with the character 惡 tattooed on his upper chest. By co-incidence, it was one of the few I knew. Upon first seeing it, I remember thinking it was quite Celtic looking and rather pretty looking. I wondered if this man had made the same mistake, and asked him if he knew what it meant. He said, “Yes, it means evil, and it’s on my heart because I have an evil heart.” Erm, okay…I backed up (I’m sure my face conveyed my shock) and that was the end of that conversation. I wonder what Mr. Evil Heart is doing today…
While on the beach just the other day I commented on the tattoo that another dog owner had prominently displayed on his bicep. “So you’re a tiger,” I ventured. The man looked rather nonplussed and said that he was, and the conversation didn’t go anywhere, which left me wondering if he thought he had tattooed some mystical symbol on his arm, one that only wise and learned stoics could decipher, rather than what it really was for the billion plus people who read Chinese or Japanese, i.e. the equivalent of spelling T-I-G-E-R in VERY BIG letters on your arm.
This reminded me of the time that my mother and father and I travelled to Hong Kong and my mother was transfixed by the beauty of the neon signs. “Aren’t they lovely?” she beamed. While I appreciated their colours, I was unable to appreciate them as aesthetic works of art only, since I kept getting distracted by their meanings, with decidedly unromantic words like “barber shop” (which generally means brothel) “sale”, and “fried chicken” jumping out at me. At that point, having a finely tuned sense of aesthetics, (thanks to my mother) I wished I didn’t know how to read them and could have appreciated them for their beauty alone.
By far the most stupid tattoo I’ve seen in a while (quite literally!) was a few months back, when I spied a girl in a bar with the phrase 愚蠢的女孩 tattooed down her back. I did a double take, and checked my dictionary as soon as I got home. Sure enough, it was indeed “stupid girl”. Why? I mean, really…why?? Perhaps she liked the song “Stupid Girl” by Garbage and thought it would be a neat “inside joke”. However an inside joke is by definition one that few get, and her chances of going under the radar with this ridiculous tattoo were slim to none in Vancouver, the most Chinese city in North America…
It’s probably good to have cases of Westerners misusing Chinese as it evens things up, given the propensity of Chinese/Japanese speakers to misuse English, but I would like to point out that the latter have an advantage over the former, as they generally display their English language gaffers on T-shirts!!
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